#13740 - 12/08/2000 08:50
empeg forgets "info" setting
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new poster
Registered: 08/08/2000
Posts: 4
Loc: Santa Barbara, CA
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Hi, I am running beta 12d on a mark II and when I change the "info" setting to "line", and turn the ignition off for a while and then turn it back on again, the "info" setting has reverted back to what it was before, "track". I can't seem to figure out how to change the setting to "line" and make it stick. Other settings, like the equalizer, seem to stick ok.
I reported this issue in email and got the following response:
This is a feature. In order to protect us from potential legal action the
player always sets itself to a non-graphical visual when started in the
car.
However, on a Mark II player the unit does not switch itself fully off
immediately when the ignition is turned off. I think it stays on for around
a minute. The actual time is customisable from within emplode. If you
extend this time then the unit will remember the visual/info setting for
that time when the ignition is turned off.
I don't get understand why there would be legal action. But if so, then I would request some way to turn off this "feature" in a future release, since I probably won't be using the fancy visuals much if I have to select them every time I get in the car.
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#13741 - 12/08/2000 09:10
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: pfalstad]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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There was a big long argument here on the BBS about this feature when it first appeared. There's no need to re-hash the pros and cons here because we've already been through that and we're all still stinging from it.
In any case, empeg gave us a fantastic compromise:
When the unit is on the info:track screen, holding down the bottom button (on the faceplate) will switch back to the visuals screen. That way, if you like the visuals in your car, you can bring them back with a single button-press.
This is the perfect compromise because it gives empeg what they need (the user must consciously choose to activate the visuals in the car), while giving us what we want (the simplest possible way to get to the visuals).
There happens to be a bug right now where that single button-press-hold doesn't always work the first time. But if it doesn't work the first time, then it'll work the second time. And they'll have that bug fixed soon.
___________
Tony Fabris
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#13742 - 13/08/2000 01:37
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: tfabris]
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journeyman
Registered: 15/09/1999
Posts: 91
Loc: Pasadena, California, USA
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In any case, empeg gave us a fantastic compromise:
When the unit is on the info:track screen, holding down the bottom button (on the faceplate) will switch back to the visuals screen. That way, if you like the visuals in your car, you can bring them back with a single button-press.
This is the perfect compromise because it gives empeg what they need (the user must consciously choose to activate the visuals in the car), while giving us what we want (the simplest possible way to get to the visuals).
Unfortunately, there seems to be one particular type of usage where this compromise fails - if you use "Info: Line" combined with a visual, then when you turn off the player and turn it back on, if you hold down the bottom button you'll only get your visual (and not "Info: Line"). At least, that's what my Mk. 2 did today (I finally got it installed in my car, after having it in hand for more than a month). On the other hand, I'm not really sure what the best way to solve this particular problem would be. Hmm. ----- Daniel M. Zimmerman Mk.2 #060000058, 36GB, Red Mk.1 #00101, 10GB, Blue
_________________________
Daniel M. Zimmerman
Mk.2 #060000058, 36GB
Mk.1 #00101, 10GB
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#13743 - 14/08/2000 13:32
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: tfabris]
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member
Registered: 19/08/1999
Posts: 116
Loc: Silicon Valley
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Ok, this is rediculous. I didn't pay $1300 to be an early adopter and have to hold down a button on my stereo each time I start my car. At least make an undocumented addition to the empeg player config file that the hackers can add in to make it remember the state of the display.
At the very least, this information should be plainly visible on the website before purchasing the unit.
Sorry I missed the original discussion. Tony, do you have a link to the thread?
-Hoagy.
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#13744 - 14/08/2000 13:49
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: hoagy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Sorry I missed the original discussion. Tony, do you have a link to the thread?Sure, there were several threads on the subject. Here's one of them. And while we're at it, why don't you give me a nice paper cut and pour lemon juice on it? ___________
Tony Fabris
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#13745 - 14/08/2000 18:01
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: hoagy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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This has to be a joke.. to rephrase that slightly, "I didn't pay $1300 to have to press a button to access a feature".
There are features in the player a million times more important than visuals (which exist purely so you can show off to your friends) which require several button presses. My god, I can't believe we forgot to include the thought controlled interface!
If we told you the playlists were hierarchical because of legal reasons, I'm certain we'd get a whole bunch of people screaming for us to make them flat.
Rob
PS Tony - sorrrrry I really don't want to start a thread all over again, but you know how it is.
PPS Early uptake was last year, this is full production!
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#13746 - 14/08/2000 18:28
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: rob]
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member
Registered: 19/08/1999
Posts: 116
Loc: Silicon Valley
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Geoff's post has to be the best one of them all. Ok, I count 7 button presses to get the visual back and change the Info to the "Line" setting. Windows 98 aside, I personally believe that technology should make our lives easier and less mundane. Now if there was a way to make the Info "Line" setting stick and only one button press to bring the visual back, then I can accept that since other electronics are similarly designed. But otherwise, this is definitely a bug that needs fixing. And I DO consider myself to be an early adopter since there are probably around 10 of them in the San Francisco Bay area and in a year, some major manufacturer is bound to offer the same thing for a fraction of the cost. It's the price we pay to have it here now. To Empeg's credit, they don't flaunt the visuals much on their web site. Obviously this isn't the Mark II's most important feature, but it's definitely one of the sexiest. And hierarchical playlists are a terrific feature! Winamp should have implemented them a long time ago. Forgetting the unit's visual state on power off is not a terrific feature. What if I'm robbing a bank and when starting up the getaway car I have to hit seven buttons?! I NEED to see the tripping prisoner visual while listening to Spybreak! Ah well, when someone leaks the code we can all change it ourselves. Death to lawyers. -Hoagy.
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#13747 - 14/08/2000 18:54
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: hoagy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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> Ok, I count 7 button presses to get the visual back and change the Info to
> the "Line" setting.
The Line issue is a different matter - restoring that setting isn't a problem legally or technically, we just didn't think of it. No doubt it will make the wishlist now.
> there are probably around 10 of them in the San Francisco Bay area
Hmm, a lot more than that I think - a huge percentage of players go to California, mainly to SF, San Jose and San Diego. I'd guess that we have more players in Southern California than we do in the UK.
> some major manufacturer is bound to offer the same thing for a fraction of
> the cost
Not the same thing - we've learned a thing or two about consumerising a product, and the car player would have to lose a LOT of bells and whistles before it could enter the mass market with an appropriate price tag.
Our take on this particular product isn't to reduce the price, but to increase the specification - whether that's new software, bigger disks or major revisions. Different products will pick up the low cost end of the market, and hopefully we'll have designed many of them!
Rob
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#13748 - 14/08/2000 19:04
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: rob]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 09/09/1999
Posts: 1721
Loc: San Jose, CA
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That would be $1300 per button push. Ahaha. That one gave me a good laugh too.
Calvin
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#13749 - 14/08/2000 20:47
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: rob]
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enthusiast
Registered: 03/09/1999
Posts: 206
Loc: Sayreville, New Jersey USA
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I'll admit that I'd prefer to not have to push a button to get the visuals on and I don't even have a player yet. However, the first thing I do when I get in the car with my Pioneer unit is adjust the volume to an acceptable level, depending on whether the windows are up or down, I've got someone else in the car or not, or I forget what level I left it at. The other thing I do right now is decide which disc I'm going to listen to. Being that my hands are already on the player, I don't see a problem with having to press one other button. Besides, I probably won't be choosing what disc I want to play anymore... I'll just have it constantly shuffling the entire player or a particular playlist. So, I no longer have to do one thing and instead I'll need to push a button when it boots up. I can live with that.
If there wasn't a legal ramification for not having done it this way, they wouldn't have done it. No one likes it like this and Empeg isn't the type to do something that the majority doesn't like. Historically, from what I've read, this is really the only thing they've done against what the majority wanted. That's a pretty darn good track record.
Hey... why not write to Pioneer, Alpine, or Sony and tell them that you want your head unit to do something in particular. Let us know how far you get. Tell them you want disc #3 to play every time you turn on the head unit because that's the one you told your girlfriend she could change. Not gonna work, is it? You're going to just have to press #3 every time you turn on the player, aren't you? You can't always have everything you want. I spent $1200 on my current Pioneer head unit 7 years ago and it forgets the names of the CD's every time I disconnect the battery. Do I like that? No. Can I fix that? Again, no. Maybe I could rig something up to add a battery backup, but I'm not that electrically inclined and it's not worth my time. If you really want to change this setting, figure out how to hack into the code and change it. We'd all appreciate that.
If the guys@empeg took the visuals out completely there wouldn't be an issue anymore, would there? I certainly don't want to see that happen, do you? I'm sorry to be so sarcastic, but this issue has been beaten to death in the past and it hasn't changed... for a reason. There's really no sense in asking Empeg to change this when they've already said they can't, for legal reasons. Yeah, maybe one day someone will find a way to bypass this, but until then, we can't do anything. I don't want Empeg going out of business due to some moron's lawsuit. I want more software updates and more features and they certainly can't do that if they're busy stating their cases in court.
Let it rest, people. Please?
George
_________________________
George
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#13750 - 15/08/2000 01:22
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: hoagy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
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Seeing as there are only 4 people who currently have the code, I suspect a leak is unlikely - if the code was leaked, we'd be rather more worried about large companies using it than people fixing bugs.
If it's a bug, and the behaviour you want is logical (which it sounds like it is: full-screen info switching to visuals+1-line-info) then it'll get fixed.
Hugo
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#13751 - 15/08/2000 03:29
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: hoagy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
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"Early Adopter" Eh? You are joking, right? So how do we (almost a year old) Mk 1 owners get labelled? One of the few remaining Mk1 owners...  #00015
_________________________
One of the few remaining Mk1 owners...  #00015
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#13752 - 15/08/2000 10:00
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: tfabris]
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member
Registered: 08/05/2000
Posts: 135
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In reply to:
"And while we're at it, why don't you give me a nice paper cut and pour lemon juice on it?
... WE'RE CLOSED!" - Miracle Max - The Princess Bride
Kureg
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#13753 - 15/08/2000 10:49
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: altman]
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member
Registered: 19/08/1999
Posts: 116
Loc: Silicon Valley
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I'm assuming that your OEM partners have access to the code. This is where a leak would occur. So Empeg puts something of value to Kenwood (or whatever manufacturer) in escrow just in case the code gets leaked.
But I'm sure that someone who has the time to press the buttons every time they start their car will find a way to disable that "feature".
The Empeg guys have done a terrific job. So we'll agree to disagree about this issue. I appologize for bringing it up since it apparently has been done to death. I was just surprised to find such a limitation placed on purpose.
-Hoagy.
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#13754 - 15/08/2000 11:02
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: schofiel]
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member
Registered: 19/08/1999
Posts: 116
Loc: Silicon Valley
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Perhaps Early Innovators? Or just circus geeks. I'm sorry that I was 586 registration numbers away from receiving a MkI. (But not really because the MkII is SO much better than your MkI) You're right; you're the elite of the 3L33T. Who am I to watch this BBS for 1.5 years for a sign of shipment?
While your typical geek probably enjoys pretending his car is a spaceship and flipping 50 buttons before he BLASTS OFF to his 10 minute commute to work, you'll find that most consumers just want their stuff to work without hassle.
-Hoagy.
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#13755 - 15/08/2000 11:18
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: hoagy]
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member
Registered: 08/05/2000
Posts: 135
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Holy bitterness Batman! Leave all the nice people alone. Everyone was happy for the last year and a half (anxiously happy perhaps  ). No offense intended, but you aren't familiar in these parts where many people have poured in their heart and soul into helping the empeg grow. You can't just jump in here and presume to tell everyone how it has to be done. Go back and read 8000 posts before bashing the long time contributors of this community. Might have to sick PaulH on your wagon! Kureg Edited by Kureg on 15/8/00 07:18 PM.
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#13756 - 15/08/2000 11:32
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: Kureg]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Miracle Max - The Princess Bride
Yup. Great movie, great scene, great line. Billy and Carol were great in that scene.
Another one that gets great mileage around software development houses: "Don't rush a miracle, kid. You get rotten miracles."
___________
Tony Fabris
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#13757 - 15/08/2000 17:24
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: rob]
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new poster
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 8
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I have to strongly agree to that the visuals are one of the least important features! Why have you even put in these embarrassingly visual features in this great product?
As an MK1 owner I remember that till today the radio is not working to todays car radios standards but there have been added unnecessary visuals from release to release.
Please do not pay attention to the visuals and concentrate on important features like voice recognition, a functioning radio unit or a good synchronisation software where I can set the the playing order of the titles.
best regards,
Christian
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#13758 - 15/08/2000 17:31
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: chrisha]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
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Visuals are there because people like to show off; most people don't use them every day.
The visuals evolved at a separate pace from the rest of the software as they were not written in-house - so it's not as if we delayed any other features because we were writing visuals.
You can set playing order of the titles easily - click on the playlist order column (in detail view) and then drag items up & down the list to set the order. I belive this is mentioned in the manual.
Hugo
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#13759 - 15/08/2000 17:34
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: hoagy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
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The code that goes to OEM partners is not the car player code - no OEMs have licenced this as yet. Code for other player variants has been licenced, but this can't be compiled up for the car player as many parts are missing.
If an OEM leaks the code (intentionally or otherwise) they're likely to get sued. Our code is our main asset as a company, and we will protect it (we'd be stupid not to!)
Hugo
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#13760 - 16/08/2000 03:10
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: hoagy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
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Who am I to watch this BBS for 1.5 years for a sign of shipmentNo idea (since you haven't filled out your profile in much detail). Why are you so angry about this? If it comes down to waiting times, then I registered as number 29, and have been on this scene considerably longer than you have. I'm also not so sure that you need to go into the "better than" comparisons, or the "geek" labelling so rapidly, either. This BBS is all about information and discussion, not hot-to-trot expositions and enraged declarations. I bought my Mk1 for fun, and I intend to use it that way over a long period of time. I will not be buying a Mk 2 since I cannot afford another, and I am perfectly content with what my Mk 1 delivers now - horses for courses. That doesn't stop me from remaining interested in the new machine, or trying to come up with suggestions that just might be interesting enough for the crew at empeg to think are worth putting into the software in the future. Thanks to my friend Henno, I can - occasionaly, if I'm a good boy  - get to touch and even play with his first-of-forty, Mark. Still can't afford one, though. Being part of a community implies a certain responsibility - you don't piss on the communal flowers, for example - and for that, you are rewarded with the respect of your neighbours. Too much to ask? Or are you going to be angry about this gentle response and flame me for a second time? One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
_________________________
One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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#13761 - 16/08/2000 05:05
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: altman]
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veteran
Registered: 16/06/1999
Posts: 1222
Loc: San Francisco, CA
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In reply to:
Visuals are there because people like to show off; most people don't use them every day.
Some of the visuals are good for relaxing/getting your thoughts back together too... I've stared off into funnelweb/etc quite a few times to regain my thoughts (especially during writer's block while trying to push out essays:) )
-mark
...proud to have owned one of the first Mark I units
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#13762 - 16/08/2000 07:38
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: schofiel]
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enthusiast
Registered: 09/11/1999
Posts: 398
Loc: Ashburn, VA
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So how do we (almost a year old) Mk 1 owners get labelled?
Old fogeys I think.....
(O|||||O)
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#13763 - 16/08/2000 09:59
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: schofiel]
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enthusiast
Registered: 27/09/1999
Posts: 200
Loc: Berkeley, CA
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So how do we (almost a year old) Mk 1 owners get labelled?"newbie" Just look to the left. Proud early adopter of a Mk.I and a first-forty Mk.II, reg #1240, registered on the board on 27 Sep 99. "You can always tell the Pioneers, they're the ones with arrows in their backs." -Zandr Mk.I #150 Mk.II #39
_________________________
-Zandr
Mk.IIa #010101243 currently getting a 500GB SSD. More spares in the shed.
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#13764 - 16/08/2000 12:08
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: chrisha]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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> Why have you even put in these embarrassingly visual features
I don't think they're embarrassing, I think they're fantastic visuals.
Gross generalisation coming up: If you're going to spend $1200+ on a car stereo, you definitely want to impress your friends - and visuals are the second best way to do that!*
I'm pleased to say that no empeg programmer time has been diverted to the visuals (we contracted out the work) and that no animals were harmed during their creation.
Rob
* first best is to say "Oh, yeah, I've got 800 hours of music in this thing"
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#13765 - 16/08/2000 12:11
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: altman]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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> Seeing as there are only 4 people who currently have the code Hey, you mean I've not got privs on the source server? I'm deeply offended! (I wonder how much Clarion would cough up for that caching algorithm...) Rob
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#13766 - 16/08/2000 13:03
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: rob]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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(I wonder how much Clarion would cough up for that caching algorithm...)Well, now that the skipping bugs have been ironed out of it, I'd imagine quite a bit. (FYI: Since that fix was implemented just before 1.0, I haven't had a single skip or dropout in any track. Just wanted to give a long-term report on it.) ___________
Tony Fabris
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#13767 - 16/08/2000 14:25
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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..and I seem to recall that it was a Linux bug anyway :-)
Rob
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#13768 - 16/08/2000 14:50
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: tfabris]
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enthusiast
Registered: 03/09/1999
Posts: 206
Loc: Sayreville, New Jersey USA
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I've got some salt, sugar and some fire ants, if it doesn't hurt enough yet. Awesome movie! "Have fun storming the castle!" George
_________________________
George
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#13769 - 16/08/2000 15:00
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: GeorgeLSJr]
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enthusiast
Registered: 15/06/1999
Posts: 259
Loc: Lincoln, NE
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It just happens that I ordered that movie on DVD last week. Its great to just pop it in when not much is going on.
There's a shortage of perfect breasts in this world. It would be a pity to damage yours.
-Finally received my Mark2 no thanks to customs.
_________________________
Brian -See my empeg <a href="www.hulkster.net/empeg" target="_blank">here</a>-
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#13770 - 16/08/2000 15:11
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: bmihulka]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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It just happens that I ordered that movie on DVD last week.
I just got a widescreen TV, and now I won't buy DVDs unless they're anamorphic widescreen versions (on the big screen, the anamorphic versions look so much better than the regular versions, it makes the regular ones look awful by comparison). I was about to get Princess Bride but it didn't say "anamorphic" or "enhanced for 16:9 TVs" on the box. So I assume it's standard letterbox instead of anamorphic widescreen. So I skipped it.
Sometimes, though, they'll make a movie in anamorphic mode but won't necessarily print it on the box. You wouldn't happen to know the difference, and be able to tell me if that's one of them, would you?
___________
Tony Fabris
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#13771 - 16/08/2000 15:58
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: tfabris]
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enthusiast
Registered: 03/09/1999
Posts: 206
Loc: Sayreville, New Jersey USA
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"You have a dizzying intellect." You're all probably big fans of Robin Hood: Men In Tights, too, aren't you? What kind of TV did you get? Umm... anamorphic? Never heard that term before. Widescreen? Letterbox? Heard of those. Never heard anamorphic, though. Sounds biological, not technological. George
_________________________
George
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#13772 - 16/08/2000 16:02
Re: empeg forgets "info" setting
[Re: rob]
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new poster
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 8
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I underestimated the number of people who buy a car stereo like empeg to impress their friends with visuals. Where I live, these people buy old VW Golf GTIs or Opel Mantas and tune them to be acknowledged by their friends.
But it is good to hear that no one of the programmers at empeg wasted their time implementing visuals instead of concentrating to improve this great and innovative product.
Maybe my dislikeness for the visuals is because when I got my MK1 8 months ago, I was excited about new features to improve the comfort and functionality of this product (like a working radio, or improved music title selections) while people where discussing why visual XY behaved this or that way :-).
Anyway I like my empeg MK1 very much and I will defenitly buy the MK2 when I get my new car this fall .... but this time as a external unit to a Bose Sound System.
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#13773 - 16/08/2000 16:48
DVDs
[Re: GeorgeLSJr]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Umm... anamorphic? Never heard that term before. Widescreen? Letterbox? Heard of those. Never heard anamorphic, though. Sounds biological, not technological.This is getting way off topic. I'm going to have to call the topic police. Wait a minute, I am the topic police. Ha. Well all right, then... 'Anamorphic' is a special method of making a DVD that allows owners of widescreen televisions (like HDTV sets) to view a letterboxed movie in its finest resolution. These DVDs usually have labeling on the back of the box indicating this. It will say either "Anamorphic" or "Enhanced for Widescreen TVs" or "Enhanced for 16:9 TVs" in fine print somewhere on the box. About half of all the DVDs out there are mastered this way. Although sometimes the box is labeled incorrectly, which is why I wanted to ask an owner of the Princess Bride DVD whether or not this was really the case. An anamorphic movie, although it's enhanced for widescreen TVs, works fine on a regular TV as well. The anamorphic mode only kicks in when you program your DVD player to "16:9" mode- in effect telling the player that you've got a widescreen TV. By default, DVD players are set up for regular 4:3 televisions and will show these movies properly letterboxed. But normally, a letterboxed movie wastes about 30 percent of the available resolution. An anamorphic movie doesn't waste any space for the black bars, it vertically compresses the image so that it fills all 480 lines, like so:  As you can see, an anamorphic image looks great on a widescreen TV set because it uses all the lines. Anamorphic movies also look fine on regular TV sets because the DVD player will do the right thing and add the black bars for the letterbox mode. But if they produce the movie as plain letterbox (not anamorphic), then I have to zoom in on the letterboxed picture with my widescreen TV set. Since I'm zooming in on only 60 percent of the lines, the picture looks fuzzy in comparison to the crystal clear quality of the the anamorphic ones. So. Does anyone know if the Princess Bride DVD is anamorphic or just plain letterboxed? ___________
Tony Fabris
Attachments
9-13485-anamorphic.gif (259 downloads)
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#13774 - 16/08/2000 17:12
Re: DVDs
[Re: tfabris]
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enthusiast
Registered: 03/09/1999
Posts: 206
Loc: Sayreville, New Jersey USA
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Damn... thanks for the info. I checked out a website that I used to buy laserdiscs from and it says that it's in Widescreen format, 1.85:1 aspect ratio, but the 16:9 Enhanced section is blank, rather than a yes or no. I'm guessing this is the piece you're looking for and it doesn't seem to have it. Okay, okay... back on topic. How are you going to get your Empeg to play DVD's? George
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George
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#13775 - 16/08/2000 20:01
Re: DVDs
[Re: tfabris]
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enthusiast
Registered: 15/06/1999
Posts: 259
Loc: Lincoln, NE
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Ok, I just checked my disk and it is only letterbox. I'm just glad it's not pan and scan only.
-Finally received my Mark2 no thanks to customs.
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Brian -See my empeg <a href="www.hulkster.net/empeg" target="_blank">here</a>-
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#13776 - 16/08/2000 22:34
Re: DVDs
[Re: bmihulka]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Ok, I just checked my disk and it is only letterbox. I'm just glad it's not pan and scan only.
Did you check based on only the printing on the box cover? If so, I'm already aware of that. My point is that some films aren't labeled one way or the other, and then you get it in the player and discover it's anamorphic.
Even if you don't have a widescreen TV, you can tell if it's anamorphic by setting your DVD player to "16:9" mode. In that mode, plain-letterbox movies will appear unchanged, anamorphic movies will be vertically squished like the third image in my illustration.
It actually saddened me when I saw it on the shelf- one of my all time favorite movies, finally on DVD. I was about to buy it and then I noticed the labeling. I mean, I could have still bought it, but without the extra resolution I might as well just watch the video tape I already own of the film. Very sad, since it's not any more expensive to produce the anamorphic version.
At least the DVD of Ferris Bueller is anamorphic. Excellent transfer, too...
___________
Tony Fabris
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#13777 - 16/08/2000 23:01
Re: DVDs
[Re: tfabris]
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enthusiast
Registered: 22/03/2000
Posts: 217
Loc: West Midlands, England
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In reply to:
So. Does anyone know if the Princess Bride DVD is anamorphic or just plain letterboxed?
DVDExpress (or whatever they've decided to call themselves this week) say it's just plain letterbox. They've always given the right info before, so I'd be inclined to believe them.
http://www.express.com/consumer/products_movies_fr.asp?PRODUCTNUMBER=5757
Nick.
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18Gb blue - s/n 080000299 (original queue position 8724)
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18GB red s/n 080000299
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#13778 - 17/08/2000 01:51
Re: DVDs
[Re: GeorgeLSJr]
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enthusiast
Registered: 21/08/1999
Posts: 381
Loc: Northern Ireland
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In reply to:
How are you going to get your Empeg to play DVD's?
I don't think that's possible, is it? I mean, surely to get a 16:9 ratio display, the empeg would need a resolution of 128x72, so you wouldn't even get half a screenful
Geoff
---- -------
Got one of the first Mark 2 empegs...
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Geoff
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Mk1 Blue - was 4GB, now 16GB
Mk2 Red - was 12GB, now 60GB
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#13779 - 17/08/2000 03:43
Re: DVDs
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
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Eh? Tony, Anamorphic has nothing to do with mastering, it's a type of non-linear lense for the camera that films the movie in the first place! To present a movie in cinemascope, at the time it was introduced, lenses could not be ground other than in a linear grind pattern, ie. fixed radius. To project a picture onto a small, square screen, you could use a normal lense. Cinemascope boasted a wide screen, with a 16:9 ratio between width and height, giving a non-square filmed area on the negative. To project it using lenses of the time, they had to build new cinema screens with a distorted, wrap-around shape to give a linear projection from a linear grind lense. Later on, they worked out how to grind the lenses for projectors/cameras in a non-linear (variable radius) way, which meant that cinemas did not have to invest in the expensive screen structures any more, and could get away with just a flat screen with the 16:9 aspect ratio, where the lense compensated for the distortion of projection onto a flat screen. Don't confuse aspect ratio with "anamorphic" this is like saying "a car engine is Gerbil" (this might be funny if your Ex's engine does actually happen to have the name "Gerbil" ). A letter-boxed movie is a movie modified to provide a way to present a movie filmed with an anamorphic lense (to give a wide filmed area) at the correct 16:9 aspect ratio expected in a good cinema on a TV screen with a different (4:3, or 12:9) aspect ratio. The result is a movie where you can see the entire extent of the filmed image, but at lower resolution and with wasted display area. As a point of note, since the majority of movies made since the 30's have been filmed with non-linear grind lenses, virtually everything that the movie studios had in back catalogue by the mid-50's when the new TV companies came knocking for content (with large chequebooks) was widescreen. This meant a problem for the TV companies. How do you show it on a TV? Which bit? The left side, or the right side? Since there was no concept of Letterboxing, or the technology to do it, a process named "shuttering" was developed for the celluloid-to-video transfer, where a skilled technician was employed to control the transfer onto tape with a Movieola conversion machine. Part of his job was to "pan the video camera" (ie. the visible viewing area of the 4:3 video "eye") across the movie's projected image to focus the viewing audience's attention on some part of the action shown on one or other side of the movie "screen". This meant that a large amount of the viewed content of a movie was frequently ommitted. If you watch a shuttered and panned movie on TV, you are probably conditioned to seeing the "viewpoint" shift on screen as the film plays (you are probably not even concious of it at all these days). This is one of the reasons why people who have only seen a movie on TV are frequently surprised by seeing it the cinema for the first time - close to 40% of the visual material of the original has been ommitted for TV viewers. So to sum up - a letterboxed movie is already anamorphic due to the lense used to film it; the difference is in the display resolution on a small aspect ratio screen. One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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#13780 - 17/08/2000 09:55
Re: DVDs
[Re: schofiel]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Thanks for the history lesson, Rob.
We're all aware of the pan-and-scan technique, and I'm also aware that the term "Anamorphic" was originally used to describe the way a Cinemascope image is captured on the film celluloid, as well as to describe the lens used to project the film back to its original aspect ratio.
However, the term "Anamorphic" also refers to a choice that's made in the DVD mastering process. It really is exactly like I described it: The producers can choose to master the image in either the full 480 anamorphic lines or the 60% letterboxed lines. In the world of DVD creation, this is a digital process instead of an analog one. And whether or not you can see the movie in this "enhanced" mode depends on your equipment and whether or not you've made the 16:9 choice in the DVD's user setup menu.
Yes, this very closely parallels the original analog-celluloid usage of anamorphic lenses, but your statement that "Anamorphic has nothing to do with mastering" is misinformed. In DVDs, it has everything to do with it.
The advantages to an anamorphic DVDs are so overwhelming, I don't know why all widescreen movies aren't produced this way. I can think of a couple of possible reasons:
1) An anamorphic DVD has more data than a letterboxed one. So maybe you wouldn't have as much room to store extra bonus material. Personally, I'd rather have the extra resolution than the extra bonus material. And I know that there's ways to get around this limitation: Double-layer DVDs, increasing compression on the bonus material, etc.
2) Perhaps the people who were given the job of mastering the DVD only had a letterboxed telecine transfer on videotape to work from. Maybe they weren't given the resources to go back to the original print and get a proper anamorphic telecine transfer to start with. I think this is the most likely explanation, and if true, this is just LAME. This would be akin to the early days of CD's, when the discs sounded harsh because they were just normalized samples of the vinyl LP master tape. Nowadays, we know how to create CDs properly, and they're not just dupes of an LP: we know how to squeeze the extra resolution from the CD format. Same with DVDs: if they would just treat it as a better format instead of a fad, they'd realize they can publish their work in higher quality and it's an advantage to go back to the original source material.
___________
Tony Fabris
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#13781 - 17/08/2000 10:16
Re: DVDs
[Re: tfabris]
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enthusiast
Registered: 15/06/1999
Posts: 259
Loc: Lincoln, NE
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In reply to:
Even if you don't have a widescreen TV, you can tell if it's anamorphic by setting your DVD player to "16:9" mode. In that mode, plain-letterbox movies will appear unchanged, anamorphic movies will be vertically squished like the third image in my illustration.
That is exactly what I did.
-Finally received my Mark2 no thanks to customs.
_________________________
Brian -See my empeg <a href="www.hulkster.net/empeg" target="_blank">here</a>-
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#13782 - 17/08/2000 11:03
Re: DVDs
[Re: bmihulka]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Sigh. Thanks for checking.
I'm so dissapointed that they didn't make that DVD anamorphic. You have no idea how much better an anamorphic DVD looks on my TV compared to a plain one. It's not HDTV, but it starts to approach that level of quality. It's quite an experience to have a 46" widescreen TV in your house and watch a high-rez movie with surround sound like that. Better than a movie theater because the popcorn doesn't cost ten bucks. And the screen is brighter.
I mean, the regular-letterbox stuff is tolerable, but like I said, at that point I might as well just pop in the videotape.
___________
Tony Fabris
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#13783 - 17/08/2000 15:39
Re: DVDs
[Re: Geoff]
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enthusiast
Registered: 03/09/1999
Posts: 206
Loc: Sayreville, New Jersey USA
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I don't know. I think if it's possible, someone will find a way. Someone wrote a piece of "software" to play MP3's on the AutoPC and it sounds like garbage... but they still wrote it. Why? Because they wanted to see if they could do it. Unfortunately, that's the history behind the atom bomb, too. Heh, sometimes "just because" isn't a very good reason. (Sorry, didn't mean to get political. Moving on...) So, I've got a feeling that somewhere down the line, someone will come up with it. I'm really not sure that the Empeg would be able to play it, though, due to processing power. It would be pretty cool to see a movie in all blue, all red, all green, or all amber, too.... and not have to adjust your TV set to see it that way! Okay, okay, so this is just a pipe dream, but, hey... maybe one day the Empeg will evolve into a somewhat larger unit with an plasma screen. Ya never can tell...
George
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George
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#13784 - 17/08/2000 15:59
Re: DVDs
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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As a follow-up to the whole anamorphic enhancement thing, here's a link to a site with an interesting essay on the topic. What I find most interesting is that the author doesn't own a TV set that can take advantage of it- he put up the page based solely on a demonstration of the technology. ___________
Tony Fabris
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#13785 - 17/08/2000 16:14
Re: DVDs
[Re: tfabris]
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enthusiast
Registered: 03/09/1999
Posts: 206
Loc: Sayreville, New Jersey USA
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Who the heck started this off-topic thread? You or me? I've thoroughly enjoyed the whole discussion. I've learned more in the past few days than I ever knew there was to know about DVD's. I'm probably going to be buying a player soon, too, so this is good info. I was all set to buy one, but then I visited Pioneer's website and it was talking about the next step being Digital Progressive Scan DVD. It sounds pretty impressive. Since I plan on getting a wide-screen TV in the near future, I figure I may as well wait for this technology to come out in a DVD changer. Now Empeg just needs to make a home player that eliminates the need for DVD's and DVD changers, just like they did with CD's and CD changers. George
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George
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#13786 - 17/08/2000 16:37
Re: DVDs
[Re: GeorgeLSJr]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I was all set to buy one, but then I visited Pioneer's website and it was talking about the next step being Digital Progressive Scan DVD. It sounds pretty impressive.
Don't hold off on buying a player because of this feature. Progressive scan is:
a) No big deal. Definitely not as big a deal as the anamorphic/letterbox thing.
b) Here now, but only on the most expensive players (ones over $700.00).
c) Only useful for high-end TV sets which can accept this kind of input.
You may not realize it, but if you have a DVD-ROM drive in your PC, you're already enjoying progressive-scan DVD playback.
All that progressive scan means is that the DVD player is capable of displaying the image in progressive frames rather than interlaced frames. They're the same frames, they're just not split up into two fields of alternating lines like interlaced NTSC television. And unless you're using an antiquated computer monitor, it's probably working in progressive (non-interlaced) mode rather than interlaced mode.
But even without a progressive scan DVD player, I can get an image out of my TV set that's very close to a progressive scan image. My Mitsubishi TV set has what's called a "Line Doubler", the digital circuit that converts all the possible image formats into one its high-rez CRTs can understand. One of the features of the line doubler is that it converts interlaced input into progressive output since its CRTs can do progressive output.
I'm told by those with progressive-scan DVD players that yes, if your DVD player does this and you have a progressive-capable television, the movies look better than their interlaced counterparts. But not by much. And a good line doubler can accomplish nearly the same task with an interlaced source.
___________
Tony Fabris
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#13787 - 17/08/2000 18:30
Re: DVDs
[Re: tfabris]
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enthusiast
Registered: 03/09/1999
Posts: 206
Loc: Sayreville, New Jersey USA
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So, then simply put, if I get a normal DVD player with a TV that can do line doubling, I'll get nearly the same results? Pioneer has a progressive scan player out and it only retails for $449. Not a bad price, if you ask me. Do the line doubling TV's cost a lot more than regular ones?
George
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George
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#13788 - 17/08/2000 19:32
Re: DVDs
[Re: GeorgeLSJr]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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So, then simply put, if I get a normal DVD player with a TV that can do line doubling, I'll get nearly the same results?
Something like that. The line doubler is just the digital image converter that's built in to my set. Any TV that can do higher-than-NTSC resolution will have that in it. Basically, that means big-screen TVs and HDTVs.
Pioneer has a progressive scan player out and it only retails for $449. Not a bad price, if you ask me.
That's not a bad price at all for a progressive-capable player. If you intend to eventually upgrade to a big screen TV or an HDTV, you might consider getting that as your first player. Do you have a link to somewhere that sells it?
But like I said, you need a big-screen TV or an HDTV-capable set to take advantage of either progressive input or progressive output. The inputs on my set will digitally convert an interlaced image into a progressive one because the CRTs will do progressive output. So really, if you think about it, if you've got a set that can handle progressive input, then it will also be able to convert interlaced to progressive for you and you don't necessarily need a progressive player.
The difference with a progressive player is that you get an extra level of clarity that comes from skipping the conversion process. I'm told that there is a difference, although I haven't seen it demonstrated. Honestly, an anamorphic DVD looks so great on my Mitsubishi set that I can't imagine it getting any better.
___________
Tony Fabris
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#13789 - 17/08/2000 19:59
Re: DVDs
[Re: tfabris]
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enthusiast
Registered: 03/09/1999
Posts: 206
Loc: Sayreville, New Jersey USA
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Well, I did a search on the Pioneer unit on PriceWatch and came up with some interesting stuff. There are 3 dealers on there that list it. I've never bought from these guys, so I don't know how good their service is, but I've bought from a few vendors off PriceWatch without incident so far. Anyhow, the 3 dealers are: Beach Camera, Buy Dig, and TechNet Deals. They have prices listed of $289, $289, and $383, respectively. I did a quick search on the net using Lycos and this place turned up. I like the fact that they're a BBB member, even though that doesn't mean they're reputable, hehe. Supreme Video has it for $309.99. I'd buy a progressive scan player, but I really want a DVD changer. I know it's the ultimate in laziness, but I'd prefer to keep my DVD's in the thing most of the time, so I don't have to go hunting for them. I'll probably wait for someone to make one before I take the DVD plunge. (I'm still a little irked that everyone stopped making laserdiscs all of a sudden.)  Thanks for all the info! If you decide to pick up the player, let me know how much of a difference you see in the picture. George
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George
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#13790 - 17/08/2000 20:34
Re: DVDs
[Re: GeorgeLSJr]
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veteran
Registered: 16/06/1999
Posts: 1222
Loc: San Francisco, CA
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In reply to:
I'd buy a progressive scan player, but I really want a DVD changer. I know it's the ultimate in laziness, but I'd prefer to keep my DVD's in the thing most of the time, so I don't have to go hunting for them. I'll probably wait for someone to make one before I take the DVD plunge. (I'm still a little irked that everyone stopped making laserdiscs all of a sudden.)
Hmm... I'm still waiting for Empeg and Tivo to team up and come out w/ a DVD jukebox:)
-mark
...proud to have owned one of the first Mark I units
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#13791 - 17/08/2000 21:07
Re: DVDs
[Re: GeorgeLSJr]
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member
Registered: 19/08/1999
Posts: 116
Loc: Silicon Valley
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I'm half tempted to keep quiet because threads like this are what make people looking for Empeg information stop reading the BBS. But I understand this is a BBS and therefore, a sort of socialization place for some.
Anyway, before you spend big money on TVs and DVD players, you might consider the projector/PC option. You get WAY better picture quality when playing DVDs through your PC and now 8x6 and 10x7 projectors are becoming affordable. LCD and DLP Projectors are also way brighter than CRT big-screen tvs and can create a MUCH bigger screen of course if you have the room for the screen on a wall (and your wife will let you decorate the room geek-style).
The best option is to use hardware MPEG decode on the PC. Software works ok, but every software DVD decoder has a particular problem and you need about a PIII 600Mhz to do it. The added bonus of the PC is you can add TV tuners, HDTV tuners, etc and do lots of picture in picturing. With a PC, you can also rip DVDs using the DivX (MPEG4) codec and store them on hard disk or CDROM. A typical movie compresses to about 650 MB pretty easily and is very watchable. But it's still a very evolving technology.
When you don't take advantage of progressive video, you're throwing away HALF of the data that the DVD holds. Interlaced is a good hack, but you really notice it if you're used to progressive and have to go back. Just imagine setting your computer monitor to 60Hz Interlaced.. Migrane city.
Anyway, just look into it before you spend bucks on a piece of equipment that you think will last you for 10 years. The PC option is definitely not for the non-technical. It's a pain in the ass to use, but if you're anal for video quality, there's no better way to fly.
-Hoagy.
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#13792 - 18/08/2000 08:03
Re: DVDs
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
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Thanks for sorting me out on those points, Tony. One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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#13793 - 18/08/2000 10:28
Re: DVDs
[Re: dionysus]
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enthusiast
Registered: 03/09/1999
Posts: 206
Loc: Sayreville, New Jersey USA
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I'm still waiting for customs to give me my Empeg...  George
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George
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#13794 - 18/08/2000 10:34
Re: DVDs
[Re: hoagy]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 09/09/1999
Posts: 1721
Loc: San Jose, CA
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In practice, dedicated DVD players are much higher quality than a PC decoding DVDs and doing a TV-out, even a dedicated S-video tv out. Trust me, I've tried it. Logistically most people don't have a pc located 3 feet from their entertainment center (3 feet is the svideo limit). A lot of pc's capable of dvd's don't have y/c out as well.
And!! Sorry Spud, interlacing does not mean you lose half the resolution. When interlacing occurs, half the resolution lines are drawn, then the other half is drawn staggered a small amount. This is done in half the time as well so effectively you get full resolution. Effectively, the lines are drawn like this:
time1 time2
frame1 frame2
-----
-----
-----
-----
-----
-----
-----
progressive looks like this:
time1+time2
=====
=====
=====
=====
Flicker is associated with this technique because as the phospher glow from the first pass will typically fade slightly on the second interlace pass.
If you're anal for DVD quality the PC is not quite there yet. Nopers!
Calvin
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#13795 - 18/08/2000 11:25
Re: DVDs
[Re: eternalsun]
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member
Registered: 08/05/2000
Posts: 135
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In reply to:
Flicker is associated with this technique because as the phospher glow from the first pass will typically fade slightly on the second interlace pass.
This is true on computer monitors because of the demand for quality diferrence between the monitor and a conventional television. The pixels on a monitor are very fine and the phosphor glow fades very quickly. The second interlace pass doesn't draw before the first pass has faded (and the image flickers).
If I recall, conventional television doesn't suffer from this problem. We don't typically notice the flicker effect on TV because it has such blurred and enlarged pixels, and the phosphor glow takes longer to fade. This is not ALWAYS true (apply a little CYA on the surface for good measure ).
Kureg
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#13796 - 18/08/2000 11:39
Re: DVDs
[Re: eternalsun]
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member
Registered: 19/08/1999
Posts: 116
Loc: Silicon Valley
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#13797 - 18/08/2000 14:06
Re: DVDs
[Re: hoagy]
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enthusiast
Registered: 03/09/1999
Posts: 206
Loc: Sayreville, New Jersey USA
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I really don't think that a few off topic messages are going to turn people away. That's the reason we change the subject. If the subject no longer interests you, you can stop reading. I know what you mean, but the people that come here realize that the is more of a "family" (no mafia ties, though... Yo, Tony! Go get da boys! ---Sorry, Tony, you just seem to fit into a lot of posts.) than simply a message board. The people on here are so willing to help out that just about anything can be asked. Granted, we don't want to stray too far off topic or do it fairly often, but every once in a while is okay, I think. Tony and I (and now you) have mentioned in our responses that this is way off topic and we probably should get more talk about Empeg, but it just happens. We're all friends here. What do friends do? They talk... about anything. Again, you are right, though, this does need to be minimized. I'll stop talking DVD's now. Deal? George
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George
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#13798 - 21/08/2000 15:48
Re: DVDs
[Re: hoagy]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 09/09/1999
Posts: 1721
Loc: San Jose, CA
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Well then you'll have to explain to me how to use SVGA on my 32 inch TV. Or for that matter, when I pick up a 60 inch TV will it accept SVGA? I think not.
Calvin
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#13799 - 21/08/2000 15:59
Re: DVDs
[Re: Kureg]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 09/09/1999
Posts: 1721
Loc: San Jose, CA
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Television flickers horribly. You can verify this by running your computer video output to your TV. The reason why it does not appear to flicker is the 1) elements on screen is typically in motion 2) television is usually presented field by field.
On my point#1, you can verify this by running your computer output to your tv. I remember on my old Amiga, running 640x400 interlaced out to the TV will cause all sorts of flickering problems. You can verify this from a PC as well. Static objects *will* flicker.
point#2 -- the first and second passes of the interlace is typically considered as two separate "frames" (known as fields in the industry) -- so consider than it takes 1/60 of a second to draw the first and second fields. However, it only takes about 1/30 of a second to draw the first field and 1/30 to draw the second field. So rather than "wasting" the 1/30 cycle and allowing possible phospher fade, the next frame goes into the second interlace pass (the second field). So basically, you lose HALF the resolution and gain twice the refresh. This is a very common practice btw.
There are TVs out there that have high phospher persistence and only ~200 lines of resolution. These are the cheapy tv's, and are actually adequate for much content out there...
keep in mind though, this doesn't apply to DVDs. DVDs output many more vertical lines of resolution than broadcast, and are typically full frames and not field based.
The more expensive TVs out there have low persistence phospher to keep pixels from hanging around too long and fuzzing things up. However, manufacturers can increase the scan frequency using electronic magic, implement line doublers, progressive scanning, etc, to create miraculous improvements over straight interlacing.
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#13800 - 21/08/2000 16:36
Re: DVDs
[Re: eternalsun]
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member
Registered: 19/08/1999
Posts: 116
Loc: Silicon Valley
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Hence the reason I specify a projector, not a tv in the recipe.
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#13801 - 22/08/2000 07:42
Re: DVDs
[Re: eternalsun]
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member
Registered: 08/05/2000
Posts: 135
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Oh . Okay! For the record, I had an Amiga too. I was convinced the Amiga monitor's slightly better visual sharpness than a normal TV was the reason the interlace effect was so apparent. I never tried hooking it up to a TV directly. Kureg
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#13802 - 22/08/2000 15:49
Re: DVDs
[Re: Kureg]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 09/09/1999
Posts: 1721
Loc: San Jose, CA
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Commodore used to manufacture a slightly more expensive version of the 1702/1802/1902 series designated "HS" for high persistency. It made things slightly blurry but eliminated the flicker. ahh, those were the days.
Calvin
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